Dear Ben,
I was out of town Sunday and listened to your sermon yesterday and have been puzzled about some of the interpretations of the apostate and the security of our salvation in Christ. Here are some comments about your sermon:
The apostate are unbelievers in Romans 8:9 who do not have the Spirit of Christ. Jude 12-13, 17-23 says they are devoid of the spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says he is natural and does not have the Spirit.
So who has the Sprit and what does he do? No one before Pentecost had the baptism, sealing, indwelling, regeneration and permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. King Saul was not a saved man, but a used man, just as Pharoah was chosen to be used. God warned Israel that having a king would bring them injury. Only believers in Christ are called, chosen, elected, sealed, washed, baptized and indwelled by the Holy Spirit.
Can a called, chosen, elected and regenerated believer in Christ lose his salvation? Romans 8:33-39 says nothing and no one can separate us from the love of God. Jesus said the Spirit would be with believers forever in John 14:16. He says in John 10:27-30 that no one can snatch them out of his hand because God is sovereign. Romans 8:28-30 says the believer has a secure salvation.
I Corinthians 9:24-27 says we might become disqualified, not for salvation, but for reward. God gave up on the ones who crossed the Red Sea, but his covenant with them is eternal. We are not told if they went to hell. Those who are cut off and burned from the vine may be judged in the flesh and all their deeds burned, but still be saved. Please read I Corinthians 3:11-15. I Thessalonians 5:9 says we are not destined to wrath. Many chosen lead sinful lives,but are listed in the Hall of Fame of Faith in Hebrews 11. I Corinthians 6 is addressed to believers who were going to be judged in their bodies, but they were not condemned to hell. We will all be judged at the throne of Christ according to the deeds done on earth. None of the church is thrown into the fire in Revelation, but the apostate will be.
I'm betting my life on these scriptures.
I hope you can clarify your position on a believer's security in Christ this Sunday.
Your sister in Christ,
Hi Donna,
You've been DIGGING IN!! Thanks so much for sending me this. A couple of
responses.....first regarding your paragraph:
Can a called, chosen, elected and regenerated believer in Christ lose his
salvation? Romans 8:33-39 says nothing and no one can separate us from the
love of God. Jesus said the Spirit would be with believers forever in John
14:16. He says in John 10:27-30 that no one can snatch them out of his
hand because God is sovereign. Romans 8:28-30 says the believer has a
secure salvation.
I do not believe for a moment that one of God's elect will go to hell. I
agree with everything in me that God's elect are secure. But apostasy
DOES take place in the church. There IS a 3rd group....the apostate
really does exist. I don't see any room in your view below for this
person. Paul warned Timothy about it in 1 Timothy 4. John wrote of these
people in 1 John 2:19. There is a difference between the visible church
and the invisible one. The visible one has wolves and divisive people and
those with a root of bitterness that defiles many. The invisible church,
however will have no wolves....and no Jezebels.....and no Balaamites. The
visible church has many people who will hear the words "I never knew you."
But the visible church will hear the words "come enter my rest."
The contemporary church has neglected consideration of this for fear of
communicating that we could lose our salvation......coupled with that, the
contemporary church has viewed salvation as an experience and an
event....often referring to when they were "saved" as past tense....and
placing faith (or hanging their hat) on a salvation event. The word seems
to show more of a journey of being saved.....and what's characteristic of
God's elect.....those with the seal of the Holy Spirit (as opposed to just
sharing in the Holy Spirit - Heb 6:4)....is that they persevere till the
very end. They, like Peter, like Abraham, like Lot, like Moses, like
Asaph fail and in snapshots certainly don't look like God's people. But
they are characterized by a journey of faith that keeps coming back to
God.....relentlessly....like Peter flung himself out of the boat to get to
Christ. Incorporating the Psalm 73 language......the elect are "held by
His right hand...guided by His counsel....and received into glory."
How in the world the apostate has these things (see below)...I don't
know....but I believe what I'm reading.
Matt 13 - sower/seed/soils parable
• some receive the word with joy, experience life and growth for a time
1 Cor 10:1-12
• they pass through the sea of baptism
• they eat spiritual food and drink spiritual drink (that is Christ)
2 Peter 2:10-22
• They escape the defilements of the world, 2 Peter 2:20
• They know the Lord and Savior Jesus, 2 Peter 2:20
• They know the way of righteousness, 2 Peter 2:21
• They have lost something more than one who never new Him.
Heb 3:12
Heb 6:4-6
• they have been enlightened. Heb 6:4
• They taste the heavenly gift, the word of God, and the powers of the
future age.
Heb 6:4-5
• They are partakers of the Spirit, Heb 6:4
• They receive heavenly blessing…..like rain, Heb 6:7
Heb 10:26-31
• They are sanctified by the blood of the covenant, Heb 10:29
The last one is the most alarming and confusing for me I must admit....how
could someone be sanctified by the blood of the covenant and yet fall
away? Maybe it's like the unbelieving husband who is "made holy" by the
faithfulness of his believing wife.....or like a city is preserved and
brightened by the presence of a living salty bright church enjoying Christ
outloud.
The Hebrews 10:26-31 passage seems pretty clear that the deliberate
in-your-face-God sinner no longer benefits from the cross. I don't
believe this is referring to God's elect because I don't believe God's
elect will "go on sinning deliberately" but will instead be on the journey
of faith where God is sanctifying them and giving them victory over sin.
God's elect will look more like Christ when they die than when they began
the journey of faith because of God's work of sanctification in them.
Matthew 18:21-35 is yet another picture of the issue of apostasy. It's
not just a parable on unforgiveness.....it looks like the gospel. A
servant can't pay back millions and is forgiven his debt. (All have
sinned and all fall short of the glory of God....but the gift of God is
eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord). Then he goes and doesn't
forgive another a very reasonable (you might say horizontal) debt. The
king then throws him to the torturers until he pays his debt. Given the
size of the debt, it's clear it can never be repaid....especially from
prison. "So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you
do not forgive your brother from your heart." This is a picture of
apostasy through unforgiveness. I don't believe this could happen to
God's elect because God's elect will not "go on sinning" in a state of
unforgiveness but would forgive as they had been forgiven.
There are too many pictures of apostasy and warnings about it to render it
an impossibility. Paul's thoughts on potential "disqualification" may not
be in regards to salvation......but then again it may be. It would fit
with his subjunctive tone in Philippians...."that I MAY gain Christ and be
found in Him"...."that I MAY know Him and the power of His resurrection
and MAY share His sufferings, becoming like Him in His death, that by any
means possible I MAY attain the resurrection from the dead." I don't hear
doubt in Paul's tone.....but I do hear a man who knows he hasn't finished
the race....yet. I hear a man who considers himself a "wretched man" and
who is "pressing on to make Christ his own.....because Christ Jesus has
made him his own."
That should be what we walk away with from a study on apostasy....an
urgency about abiding......a deep longing for "grace like a fetter to bind
our wandering hearts to thee."
Then there's Peter's words regarding false prophets and teachers. They
have "escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of
Christ" and then became "again entangled in them and overcome." (2:20-21)
The outcome of their "entanglement" is worse than the first state before
they ever knew Him. (vv 21-22) This sounds much worse than simply losing
a reward...sounds like God has a special gloomier and darker place
reserved for them. (v. 17)
This is a VERY complicated issue......I was just thinking about John
8....where "many believed in Him." (v. 30) Then by the end of the
chapter (same setting) they are "picking up stones to throw at him." I
trust with everything in me that God will not lose any of His
sheep......but I believe what the word tells me that some wear "sheep's
clothing" and will not inherit eternal life.
Donna, I think we agree more than we disagree.....I believe in the
security of God's elect....I too am betting my life on these promises.
Ben
Ben,
Thanks for the thoughtful response! I'm printing this to take to Small
Group tonight at Bill Ruth's. I still disagree about 2 Peter 2. He refers
to "them" and "you". The "them" group is condemned. The "you" group
is compared with righteous Lot. I don't believe there is a 3rd
group--only saved and unsaved. Jesus says to the apostate "I never knew
you", not "I used to know you". Did you look at I Corinthians 3?
Donna
Hi Donna,
He's talking about the false teachers who:
* "feast with you"
* "entice unsteady souls"
* " are "forsaking the right way they have gone astray"
* "have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of Christ"
That sounds like people who were (or are) among us, Donna. The letters to
the churches in the book of Revelation show apostate false teachers in the
church. Some hold to the teachings of Balaam....some to the teachings of
the Nicolaitans.....some teaching people to practice sexual immorality and
eat food sacrificed to idols.....like Jezebel.
It's not someone loosing their salvation....because they never had the
seal of the Holy Spirit....just a "share". They did not finish the race
in faith but resorted to works righteousness (like apostate Israel -
Romans 9-11). Apostate Israel WAS God's chosen people yet most did not
inherit the Kingdom. Paul says "I could wish that I myself were accursed
and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers." This is the same
language of John 15:2 and 6.....but in this case it's MOST of Israel
that's cut away. Read Romans 9-11 and you'll see that God actually
ordained their apostasy and hardened their hearts so that the Gentiles
could be grafted in.
I believe, as in the case of Israel who was REALLY God's people - baptized
and drinking from Christ (1 Cor 10), that when someone is baptized into
the people of God that they actually join the body. God declares them
part of the bride through the ordinance of baptism. That's how the
blessing of baptism becomes their curse. If a man marries a woman for her
money, they are no less married because his motives weren't pure. So
there are people who are baptized into the body who will not continue with
us because they were never truly of us (as John says in 1 John 2:19).
1 Corinthians 3 clearly uses fire as a picture of refinement....revealing
the integrity of a believer's work (or lack thereof). But every reference
to fire in God's word can't now be interpreted as simple refinement and
testing. Instead of interpreting all the other warning passages (like
John 15:2) in light of 1 Corinthians 3:13-15......I would offer that we
let the passages say what they say and believe that both can be true. We
can trust that our work WILL be made manifest.....and the quality of it
will be tested.....and the outcome revealed. The refining work of fire is
a great image of that event. We can also trust that being "thrown away"
and "thrown into the fire" sort of language of John is in keeping with
passages in Revelation that refer to eternal damnation. (Rev 19:20; 20:3;
20:10;20:14; 20:15) The branches being "thrown away" were once in the
vine.
Thanks for digging into this with me, Donna. It's a worthwhile study. I
must tell you, you stand mostly alone if you have no view of apostasy (ie
the 3rd group of people). The reformers, the puritans, good solid
theologians agree that God has much to say on apostasy. Some reduce it to
merely warnings that couldn't really happen...but God's not one to make
empty promises/threats. Others land in the place that God's elect will persevere
to the end (which is where I stand). It's like wool to a sheep. It's
what God's people do. And those who don't were not elect.....as Matthew
13 shows, it's the nature of the Kingdom.
Ben
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